Published: Sunday September 8, 2013 MYT 2:38:00 PM
Updated: Sunday September 8, 2013 MYT 2:39:51 PM
Two Singaporeans drown in Tioman
BY SIMON KHOO
ROMPIN: Two Singaporeans drowned during a diving outing in Pantai Air Batang, Tioman, in a series of drowning incident involving foreigners in the popular island.
The victims, aged 35 and 48, were brought to the shore by other divers during the incident at about 12pm on Saturday.
Deputy OCPD Asst Supt Zainul Mujahidin Mat Yudin said cardiopulmonary resuscitation was performed on the victims but they already turned pale and not breathing.
ASP Zainul Mujahidin said the case had been classified as sudden death and their remains had been sent for a post-mortem.
"Initial investigation showed both victims and a woman were in a group diving in the site about 25m from the shores.
"One of them was a diving instructor and the other his student," he said, adding that the woman who spotted the two men in difficulties quickly waved frantically for help.
ASP Zainul Mujahidin said a group of other divers nearby rushed to their assistance and managed to bring them out of the water.
However, both victims were confirmed dead and police were alerted to the scene.
Last month, a couple from Syria lost their eight-year-old in Pulau Salang after the child went for a swim without their knowledge.
Passers-by spotted the remains of Saad Abdul Karim Mohd Altayasinah floating in the water before alerting the authorities.
Police also recovered the remains of two unidentified persons, believed to be foreigners who have drowned, in Kampung Mukut and Pulau Tulai, respectively.
Both victims were decomposed and without any personal documents.
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Its very sad. A Singapore-based dive forum is discussing details reported in the Chinese-language local press. It appears (according to comments in the forum) that the two victims used partially depleted tanks for this dive. If that's indeed the case, it could be that the tragedy involved an OOA situation. Regardless of whether this is factual, we can take a lesson at least from the speculation and make sure we don't go into open water with less than fully charged tanks. It's not unheard of that the SPG is inaccurate at low readings, for instance, and if it's not reading correctly, safety is compromised, particularly when initiating a dive with the same tank used on a previous dive.
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I asked an old dive shop on Tioman what occured, also on Air Batang. I got this reply from the owner.
Hey Stew, wow rumors are spreading fast...You can update the forums with some facts if you want:A freelance instructor came to Tioman with 3 OWD students and rented tanks from Ray Divers in ABC. He was too cheap to rent more tanks so he conducted all CW one a single tank (for him and the students).
On the 2nd day the went for a shore dive to finish the CW when all 3 students ran out of air. Two of them did a controlled CESA from apparently 3m depth whereas the third panicked. Upon surfacing 2 inflated their BCD orally, the 3rd drowned. The 2 survivors dragged the drowned student to shore. The Instructor was found with 20bar left in his tank. He was using a BCD with Air Control (alternate on inflator) and apparently that was totally ripped out of the BCD. My opinion:Seems to me that the panicked student tried to bet the alternate from instructor, pulled to hard and then maybe even the instructor panicked and drowned. Another possibility that people talk about is that he had a heart attack, but that's all not confirmed.
Fact is that 2 people died because an instructor tried to safe a few ringgit.
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Originally Posted by CarcharodonCarcharias 
I read it in a rather different way. What I understood was that he rented just one tank for each diver and didn't get the tanks filled after using them for a confined water session the previous day. I could be wrong, but it would be a little more logical, at least.
I'm not convinced that 'money grubbing' on the part of any op, or even the instructor, is at issue. There is huge, huge pressure in Singapore and Malaysia to offer dive instruction at the cheapest rate possible. Many Singaporeans and Malaysians take pride in finding the very best bargains, but of course in order to offer bargain basement pricing, an operator or instructor has to make "adjustments" here and there to keep the overhead to a minimum. I would guess that this was the motivation for not getting the tanks refilled rather than it being the case of a shop trying to cheat student divers out of what they paid for. I don't know what this particular instructor was charging, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a rock bottom price.
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Originally Posted by Quero
Logically speaking, I think you are right. They were all provided with 1 tank each. Again, there are so many different rumors going on, who knows what really happened.
I beg to differ: Huge pressure to offer diving certified courses are part of this money grabbing scheme in Singapore and Malaysia. By money grabbing, you can look at it two different ways: Try to make as much money by jack up the profit margin at all cost or try to make as much money by churning out as many certified divers as possible(where the decrease of the profit margin are compensated by volume). And you see some outfits in the region falls into the latter category. The common joke is that PADI stands for Pay And Dive Immediately (for full disclosure, I am PADI certified) but joking aside, I've seen some stuff that I do not like here in the region. There are operators here that I would trust 100% (i.e. the shop that I frequent). But I am not going to say that all the shops here gives me that level of confidence.
But I agree with you that the shops in the region are under tremendous pressure to keep their doors open and it is quite alarming - especially now with the Pulau Aur and Johor Marine Park fee increase.
I also agree with you that lots of ppl here take pride for being able to find bargain basement pricing or haggle until there is not profit margin left. And this means the onus will have to be the divers (not saying that this is the case for the divers involved in the accident). Most of the time, you get what you paid for. If it is too good to be true, than it probably is.
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Originally Posted by jtko59
Now that is funny.
In reply to others, yes there is huge pressure on most dive shops, at least in Singapore, to cut costs. It's not to make a "money grabbing" profit though. If you want your shop to stay open, you either have to have to find a great angle such as convincing students that they will get fantastic service or you compete with 95% of the shops on price. Many places offer courses here for S$500 (US$400) for the whole course including the weekend dive trip, food and accommodation. Despite this, many people here won't sign up for the course because the know that at ADEX in April, shops with offer a 10-30% discount off the normal price. How anyone can teach a course for that price is beyond me. Two pool sessions (S$60), course material and cert (S$120), instructor cost (S$100 for about 13 hours of work just for the pool and theory class), transport to mersing, ferry transport, accommodations for 2 nights, 6-7 meals, 5 tanks, gear rental / depreciation, any overhead, etc.
My wife still has the receipt for her open water course she took in Singapore in 1983. She recalls that it was pretty standard pricing around the few diveshops here at the time. The dives were in Singapore waters at Hantu so no transport to Mersing, hotel or food was provided. The price was S$500. I guess deflation in Singapore over the past 30 years has caused this. Sheesh.
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An instructor tried to save a few bucks by doing the confined water in the ocean and then using one tank over two days to complete the confined water skills. Obviously they were also either not checking their gauges or the gauges were off some (which is often the case when trying to figure out if you have 10 or 1 bar left). Also, the student, and possibly the instructor, was obviously overweighted. Panic had to have played a major role in the accident. Again, this is not surprising when a student is not a strong swimmer, has no air to inflate his BCD and is having significant difficulty staying on the surface.
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The info from the Dive shop they rent the tank from. The owner even get another 4 new air tank ready for the divers at the beach but the instructor insist not to use the new tanks and refuse the floater provided by the dive shop as well.
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Updated: Sunday September 8, 2013 MYT 2:39:51 PM
Two Singaporeans drown in Tioman
BY SIMON KHOO
ROMPIN: Two Singaporeans drowned during a diving outing in Pantai Air Batang, Tioman, in a series of drowning incident involving foreigners in the popular island.
The victims, aged 35 and 48, were brought to the shore by other divers during the incident at about 12pm on Saturday.
Deputy OCPD Asst Supt Zainul Mujahidin Mat Yudin said cardiopulmonary resuscitation was performed on the victims but they already turned pale and not breathing.
ASP Zainul Mujahidin said the case had been classified as sudden death and their remains had been sent for a post-mortem.
"Initial investigation showed both victims and a woman were in a group diving in the site about 25m from the shores.
"One of them was a diving instructor and the other his student," he said, adding that the woman who spotted the two men in difficulties quickly waved frantically for help.
ASP Zainul Mujahidin said a group of other divers nearby rushed to their assistance and managed to bring them out of the water.
However, both victims were confirmed dead and police were alerted to the scene.
Last month, a couple from Syria lost their eight-year-old in Pulau Salang after the child went for a swim without their knowledge.
Passers-by spotted the remains of Saad Abdul Karim Mohd Altayasinah floating in the water before alerting the authorities.
Police also recovered the remains of two unidentified persons, believed to be foreigners who have drowned, in Kampung Mukut and Pulau Tulai, respectively.
Both victims were decomposed and without any personal documents.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its very sad. A Singapore-based dive forum is discussing details reported in the Chinese-language local press. It appears (according to comments in the forum) that the two victims used partially depleted tanks for this dive. If that's indeed the case, it could be that the tragedy involved an OOA situation. Regardless of whether this is factual, we can take a lesson at least from the speculation and make sure we don't go into open water with less than fully charged tanks. It's not unheard of that the SPG is inaccurate at low readings, for instance, and if it's not reading correctly, safety is compromised, particularly when initiating a dive with the same tank used on a previous dive.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I asked an old dive shop on Tioman what occured, also on Air Batang. I got this reply from the owner.
On the 2nd day the went for a shore dive to finish the CW when all 3 students ran out of air. Two of them did a controlled CESA from apparently 3m depth whereas the third panicked. Upon surfacing 2 inflated their BCD orally, the 3rd drowned. The 2 survivors dragged the drowned student to shore. The Instructor was found with 20bar left in his tank. He was using a BCD with Air Control (alternate on inflator) and apparently that was totally ripped out of the BCD. My opinion:Seems to me that the panicked student tried to bet the alternate from instructor, pulled to hard and then maybe even the instructor panicked and drowned. Another possibility that people talk about is that he had a heart attack, but that's all not confirmed.
Fact is that 2 people died because an instructor tried to safe a few ringgit.
Originally Posted by CarcharodonCarcharias
So here are the questions:
1) Did the shop owner know the acrimonious freelance instructor was renting one tank for 4 ppl? Because if he/she did, then the shop owner should bear some form of responsibility as well.
2) Why were the OW students willing to go with a freelance instructor that is so cheap that only one tank of air was rented and shared amongst 4 people?
I've seen some and heard some dive outfits in the region that I walk away and shaking my head because of the money grabbing nature of the operators. But this one is definitely the lowest of the totem pole from what I've seen and heard.
1) Did the shop owner know the acrimonious freelance instructor was renting one tank for 4 ppl? Because if he/she did, then the shop owner should bear some form of responsibility as well.
2) Why were the OW students willing to go with a freelance instructor that is so cheap that only one tank of air was rented and shared amongst 4 people?
I've seen some and heard some dive outfits in the region that I walk away and shaking my head because of the money grabbing nature of the operators. But this one is definitely the lowest of the totem pole from what I've seen and heard.
I'm not convinced that 'money grubbing' on the part of any op, or even the instructor, is at issue. There is huge, huge pressure in Singapore and Malaysia to offer dive instruction at the cheapest rate possible. Many Singaporeans and Malaysians take pride in finding the very best bargains, but of course in order to offer bargain basement pricing, an operator or instructor has to make "adjustments" here and there to keep the overhead to a minimum. I would guess that this was the motivation for not getting the tanks refilled rather than it being the case of a shop trying to cheat student divers out of what they paid for. I don't know what this particular instructor was charging, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a rock bottom price.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Quero
I read it in a rather different way. What I understood was that he rented just one tank for each diver and didn't get the tanks filled after using them for a confined water session the previous day. I could be wrong, but it would be a little more logical, at least.
I'm not convinced that 'money grubbing' on the part of any op, or even the instructor, is at issue. There is huge, huge pressure in Singapore and Malaysia to offer dive instruction at the cheapest rate possible . Many Singaporeans and Malaysians take pride in finding the very best bargains, but of course in order to offer bargain basement pricing, an operator or instructor has to make "adjustments" here and there to keep the overhead to a minimum. I would guess that this was the motivation for not getting the tanks refilled rather than it being the case of a shop trying to cheat student divers out of what they paid for. I don't know what this particular instructor was charging, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a rock bottom price.
I'm not convinced that 'money grubbing' on the part of any op, or even the instructor, is at issue. There is huge, huge pressure in Singapore and Malaysia to offer dive instruction at the cheapest rate possible . Many Singaporeans and Malaysians take pride in finding the very best bargains, but of course in order to offer bargain basement pricing, an operator or instructor has to make "adjustments" here and there to keep the overhead to a minimum. I would guess that this was the motivation for not getting the tanks refilled rather than it being the case of a shop trying to cheat student divers out of what they paid for. I don't know what this particular instructor was charging, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a rock bottom price.
I beg to differ: Huge pressure to offer diving certified courses are part of this money grabbing scheme in Singapore and Malaysia. By money grabbing, you can look at it two different ways: Try to make as much money by jack up the profit margin at all cost or try to make as much money by churning out as many certified divers as possible(where the decrease of the profit margin are compensated by volume). And you see some outfits in the region falls into the latter category. The common joke is that PADI stands for Pay And Dive Immediately (for full disclosure, I am PADI certified) but joking aside, I've seen some stuff that I do not like here in the region. There are operators here that I would trust 100% (i.e. the shop that I frequent). But I am not going to say that all the shops here gives me that level of confidence.
But I agree with you that the shops in the region are under tremendous pressure to keep their doors open and it is quite alarming - especially now with the Pulau Aur and Johor Marine Park fee increase.
I also agree with you that lots of ppl here take pride for being able to find bargain basement pricing or haggle until there is not profit margin left. And this means the onus will have to be the divers (not saying that this is the case for the divers involved in the accident). Most of the time, you get what you paid for. If it is too good to be true, than it probably is.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by jtko59
Let's wait for an official report, these rumours are giving Diving a bad name....
In reply to others, yes there is huge pressure on most dive shops, at least in Singapore, to cut costs. It's not to make a "money grabbing" profit though. If you want your shop to stay open, you either have to have to find a great angle such as convincing students that they will get fantastic service or you compete with 95% of the shops on price. Many places offer courses here for S$500 (US$400) for the whole course including the weekend dive trip, food and accommodation. Despite this, many people here won't sign up for the course because the know that at ADEX in April, shops with offer a 10-30% discount off the normal price. How anyone can teach a course for that price is beyond me. Two pool sessions (S$60), course material and cert (S$120), instructor cost (S$100 for about 13 hours of work just for the pool and theory class), transport to mersing, ferry transport, accommodations for 2 nights, 6-7 meals, 5 tanks, gear rental / depreciation, any overhead, etc.
My wife still has the receipt for her open water course she took in Singapore in 1983. She recalls that it was pretty standard pricing around the few diveshops here at the time. The dives were in Singapore waters at Hantu so no transport to Mersing, hotel or food was provided. The price was S$500. I guess deflation in Singapore over the past 30 years has caused this. Sheesh.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An instructor tried to save a few bucks by doing the confined water in the ocean and then using one tank over two days to complete the confined water skills. Obviously they were also either not checking their gauges or the gauges were off some (which is often the case when trying to figure out if you have 10 or 1 bar left). Also, the student, and possibly the instructor, was obviously overweighted. Panic had to have played a major role in the accident. Again, this is not surprising when a student is not a strong swimmer, has no air to inflate his BCD and is having significant difficulty staying on the surface.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The info from the Dive shop they rent the tank from. The owner even get another 4 new air tank ready for the divers at the beach but the instructor insist not to use the new tanks and refuse the floater provided by the dive shop as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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